Why unregulate an s410.

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Matool
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Why unregulate an s410.

Wed May 23, 2018 8:09 pm

I am thinking of regulating my s410 carbine .177 after chronographing it's power curve. What I found was it's sweet spot was only 20 shots (mag 2 and 3. I done 6 mags drop off started half way though mag 4) and In the sweet spot there was a variation of 12 fps .

From what iv read about the regulators there is no down side with a huge shot count increase and a much better fps variation and when tuned right easier cocking and a shorter lock time due to a lower operating pressure but I keep reading on here about people taking them out of there guns mostly 410s.

So it might be a silly one but my question is why? Why take it out after the time and effort of putting it in whats the benefit of taking it out. Any thoughts or advice is welcome as knowledge is power and i would prefer to know anything people have found before I reg it and then find out any down sides myself.

Thanks everyone.
Baikal mp12-m .22
Smk b2 custom carbine .22
Bam b4 underleaver .177
Webly vmx .20
Sag TH 78 D .22
Sig Sauer P226 mk25 .177
Air arms s410 carbine .177

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Blackbaronfish
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Re: Why unregulate an s410.

Wed May 23, 2018 9:08 pm

It’s a simple fact that some regulators cause more problems than they help.
When setting the reg up it’s a fine balance.

I know you say your variation is 12 FPS but what’s it like when punching paper at your chosen distance. Odds are you won’t even notice it.

BBF
Did I mention that I'm the only one to have attended EVERY annual meet since we started

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tonyc
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Re: Why unregulate an s410.

Wed May 23, 2018 9:32 pm

A huge increase in shot count is only possible if you reduce the power substantially or do two things: increase the available air (either more volume or bigger differential between fill and 'empty' pressure) and improve the flow to the barrel (bigger port). Even then there is a trade off: for the same energy, the mass of air per shot needs to increase as you reduce the reg pressure. The rest is about balancing reg, valve and hammer to get most efficient release of air... not so easy to get right. So the downside is you could trash the gun and find you can't put it back... or you spend more than it would cost to trade it in and get a gun designed and built regulated.

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TenMetrePeter
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Re: Why unregulate an s410.

Wed May 23, 2018 10:10 pm

Also if you fit a reg that needs a breather hole you cant take it out and leave a hole in there so it's a new cylinder then.
S400 MPR Precision with TMP alloy stock.

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Bezzer
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Re: Why unregulate an s410.

Wed May 23, 2018 10:55 pm

tonyc wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:32 pm
. Even then there is a trade off: for the same energy, the mass of air per shot needs to increase as you reduce the reg pressure.
Sorry but what does that mean? you balance the reg pressure with everything else - valve and hammer springs, hammer, port etc to get the most efficient use of the available regulated air., You get something like a Lane reg and it's preset to the ideal pressure, there is absolutely no need to mess with that setting, what's the "trade off" you're losing nothing and have everything to gain if done right.
tonyc wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:32 pm
. The rest is about balancing reg, valve and hammer to get most efficient release of air... not so easy to get right. So the downside is you could trash the gun and find you can't put it back... or you spend more than it would cost to trade it in and get a gun designed and built regulated.
It isn't easy as you say to balance everything on an AIr Arms but if you are reasonably competent it's just a matter of trialling and testing then some more trialling and testing etc etc until you get it right there's no real baseline to work from just your own testing records. The only thing you can trash really is the port which can be got around, to replace the cylinder costs around £40 if you balls it up.

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Pauly5
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Re: Why unregulate an s410.

Thu May 24, 2018 8:50 am

I'm no expert, but you should probably watch some of lanes videos to understand how they all relate to each other. The reg meters out the same pressure blast of air, but what let's out that air on trigger release needs to be tuned to harmonize with that.
It's kind of like photography where a few factors combine like shutter speed, appature, opening size, blah blah blah.

Paul.

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Blackbaronfish
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Re: Why unregulate an s410.

Thu May 24, 2018 10:08 am

A bog standard set up with a Lane anti bounce will be all that you require 8-)

BBF
Did I mention that I'm the only one to have attended EVERY annual meet since we started

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tonyc
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Re: Why unregulate an s410.

Thu May 24, 2018 11:11 pm

Bezzer wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:55 pm
tonyc wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:32 pm
. Even then there is a trade off: for the same energy, the mass of air per shot needs to increase as you reduce the reg pressure.
Sorry but what does that mean? you balance the reg pressure with everything else - valve and hammer springs, hammer, port etc to get the most efficient use of the available regulated air., You get something like a Lane reg and it's preset to the ideal pressure, there is absolutely no need to mess with that setting, what's the "trade off" you're losing nothing and have everything to gain if done right.
tonyc wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:32 pm
. The rest is about balancing reg, valve and hammer to get most efficient release of air... not so easy to get right. So the downside is you could trash the gun and find you can't put it back... or you spend more than it would cost to trade it in and get a gun designed and built regulated.
It isn't easy as you say to balance everything on an AIr Arms but if you are reasonably competent it's just a matter of trialling and testing then some more trialling and testing etc etc until you get it right there's no real baseline to work from just your own testing records. The only thing you can trash really is the port which can be got around, to replace the cylinder costs around £40 if you balls it up.
The laws of physics determine the trade off. The lower the reg pressure the more air you need per shot (at constant energy). The trade off, as reg pressure is lowered, is more usable air vs higher rate of usage.

I haven't fitted a Lane reg so can't comment other than to say my understanding is that Lane have done the design work for you and you'll get an improvement if you follow the instructions and are competent to carry them out. My sensitivity is about the word "huge". Some owners will not be satisfied and will want to do more.

I have an Altaros regulated Ultimate Sporter. My expectation was that I would get regulated power/constant velocity, not a huge increase in number of shots.... in fact, not any more shots. If I wanted a huge number of additional shots I'd have bought another gun (but don't need to as I have others already incl. regged.)

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Bezzer
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Re: Why unregulate an s410.

Fri May 25, 2018 4:35 pm

tonyc wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:11 pm

The laws of physics determine the trade off. The lower the reg pressure the more air you need per shot (at constant energy). The trade off, as reg pressure is lowered, is more usable air vs higher rate of usage.

I haven't fitted a Lane reg so can't comment other than to say my understanding is that Lane have done the design work for you and you'll get an improvement if you follow the instructions and are competent to carry them out. My sensitivity is about the word "huge". Some owners will not be satisfied and will want to do more.
Load of rubbish, the physics part doesn't really come into it, your US and every other Air Arms rifle has a sweet spot usually a fair bit below the max cylinder pressure, a reg lets you fill up to that max pressure then gives you regulated shots all the way down to it dropping off the reg. If your US is the carbine (300mm long) cylinder then it's the same as any other AA carbine model. My 400 carbine is now at 114 shots at 775/11.3 ftlbs from a full fill, a HUGE increase in carbine shot count and at a decent power whichever way you look at it..
tonyc wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:11 pm

I have an Altaros regulated Ultimate Sporter. My expectation was that I would get regulated power/constant velocity, not a huge increase in number of shots.... in fact, not any more shots. If I wanted a huge number of additional shots I'd have bought another gun (but don't need to as I have others already incl. regged.)
Well you wasted your money then, filling an unregged to around 170bar gives you a decent sweet spot down to 100ish which can be as consistent power as a regged gun, if you didn't want the added advantage of extra air fill and extra shots then there was no need to fit one. I wanted the added shot count to last me a session of practice and HFT competition.

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Matool
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:07 pm

Re: Why unregulate an s410.

Fri May 25, 2018 11:05 pm

Thanks for everyones replys a lot of good points here and yeah i was looking at a lane or huma regulater with a lane anti hammer bounce and the only down side to a regulater is there hard to balance right when fitting (might be a gunsmith job maybe). But when fitted right the only way is up right.


Hi bezzer some good results there. it's what I'm seeing people getting a lot after fitting a regulater. What regulater are u running in your 410 and did you fit it yourself if so how did u find fitting it ?

All the best thanks all
Baikal mp12-m .22
Smk b2 custom carbine .22
Bam b4 underleaver .177
Webly vmx .20
Sag TH 78 D .22
Sig Sauer P226 mk25 .177
Air arms s410 carbine .177

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