Firing pot length

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Blackbaronfish
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Re: Firing pot length

Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:56 am

I would be very interested to see a link to the court case in question.

BBF
Did I mention that I'm the only one to have attended EVERY annual meet since we started

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John814ce
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Location: Rotherham, south yorkshire

Re: Firing pot length

Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:02 am

I have several lengths of the ventrui screw from 13.4mm to 13.6mm, just to clarify these are one single pieces not two screws like the standard aa, doing away with the dust screw and the inside grub screw( which i found it can move/turn slightly over time giving insufficient fps spread. With what i have done using single stainless steel hex screw with a slight amount of ptfe tape on the thread(not up to the tapered end) just on the thread,as eliminated this completely. I choose to drop a small blob of solder in the hex screw head then shape to a dome contour its quite easily shaped because the solder is soft, it doesn't stick to the screw head its just holding in by pressing and shaping, its quite good actually and just looks like the original shear bolt. And it can be removed when ever by just picking it out with a dentist tooth pick tool if i ever need to, i try to put a video on YouTube sometime this week " john hookway delta Stryker scope "

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Archer50
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Re: Firing pot length

Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:28 pm

John814ce wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:43 pm
....the police can only test the pellets which were on your person at the time and the pellets you use with your gun. They was a legal court case a few years ago which clarified this."
What case was that? Both the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 and the Scottish equivalent use the term 'capable of', and (unfortunately) there is no reference whatever to which pellets are used. If your gun is over power with any pellet, you could be in trouble and a quick word with BASC or similar responsible organisation will confirm this.

Alan

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John814ce
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Location: Rotherham, south yorkshire

Re: Firing pot length

Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:09 pm

It cant go over power if you only use certain pellet and only ever own and use that type. As for the police testing with different weights and brands then the police are making the gun go over power. I read this a while ago the main defence was the guy only owned and used a certain brand of pellet which was and did not send the gun over power, it was only until the police chronograph testing useing different types of pellets the gun went slightly over. He won on that basis. If you think about it its like the law saying your watching tv without a license but you say not, its only until the law come in your house with a warrant and plug your tv aireal in the back of your tv making it caple of receiving live broadcast then you are breaking the law, you get the idea.

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Archer50
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Re: Firing pot length

Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:00 pm

Sorry, but I STRONGLY suggest you speak to someone like BASC. It's not a matter of opinion or logic, but of law.

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John814ce
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Re: Firing pot length

Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:26 pm

I know what your saying i really do, but if this court case ruled in favour of the man in question that it wasn't over 12 ftlbs and wasn't capable with pellets he used at the time he got stopped then clearly this is a strong argument to use if your gun is close to 12ftlb with your choice of pellet. The law is slightly miss guided on what counts for "is the gun capable of going over 12ftlbs." I think every air gun i know can be tampered with someway or another, so whats to say that your gun is shooting no more than say 10.5 ftlbs with heavys, then the police stop you take your gun and test it and then prosecute you because the anti tampers are removed and you can make your gun "capable of shooting over power" by turning a few screws, same thing. The gun would be in the eyes of the law capable of shooting over power even though at the time they took your gun it was 10.5 ftlbs....you see what im saying. So this being the case of what your saying archer50 then every hft/ft course arcoss the land should when you book/sign in, give you the heaviest pellet to test threw they chronograph before commencing on the course....... correct?
Regarding the court case.......
I read it on an air gun forum years ago i think bbs or somthing ive been trying to find it for a few days.

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tonyc
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Re: Firing pot length

Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:49 pm

John814ce wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:26 pm
The law is slightly miss guided on what counts for "is the gun capable of going over 12ftlbs." I think every air gun i know can be tampered with someway or another, so whats to say that your gun is shooting no more than say 10.5 ftlbs with heavys, then the police stop you take your gun and test it and then prosecute you because the anti tampers are removed and you can make your gun "capable of shooting over power" by turning a few screws, same thing. The gun would be in the eyes of the law capable of shooting over power even though at the time they took your gun it was 10.5 ftlbs....you see what im saying. So this being the case of what your saying archer50 then every hft/ft course arcoss the land should when you book/sign in, give you the heaviest pellet to test threw they chronograph before commencing on the course....... correct?
Regarding the court case.......
I read it on an air gun forum years ago i think bbs or somthing ive been trying to find it for a few days.
The legislation may be ambiguous - it's usually the case with any Act, there is wording which is open to interpretation which is why test cases are so important. There is no legal requirement for anti-tamper. Almost any exempt firearm is capable of being converted to one requiring certification, and the legislation doesn't cover how easy or difficult manufacturers must make this for air weapons. Within the legislation there is reference to converting other deactivated, exempt firearms back into service; this should not be possible with tools found in the home as used by the average DIYer (I can find the exact wording if you want it). So the assumption is a judge would interpret "capable of" for airguns as meaning requiring similar tools. This raises further questions: are hex keys normal DIY tools? Are security torx keys? But, having read all the relevant legislation, I wouldn't rely on simply not putting a different pellet in the gun as adequate defence.

When a gun is confiscated by the Police it has to be tested under strictly controlled conditions so the idea they can do anything they like is not correct.

Hft courses (and RFDs) are not charged with enforcing the law so whatever their rules are they have no relevance. The heaviest pellet will not give the highest power - all we are saying is AA PCPs usually give highest ME with JSB 10.34gr.

I've seen claims and hearsay in other forums about what has/hasn't been found in various cases. Rarely does anyone give a proper reference to allow the details of the case to be examined. And the devil is always in the detail. So if you can name the case (the name of the defendant would probably be enough) then I would be happy to look it up.

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John814ce
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Re: Firing pot length

Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:39 am

Cool i will tune my gun to 11.99 ftlb at 130 bar with jsb heavys 10.34gn, then see what i get with the best and most accurate pellet for my gun which are jsb exact diabolo 8.4gn.
I cant name the case like i said i read it ages ago on forum's i think, however if its true then we need to find it. As this would hold up in any legal argument.

Regarding chronograph what if the police decided to test my gun (if they ever seized it)
With jsb beast at 16.20 gn? Were does it end?
What if the jsb beast pellets zip through my barrel nice and quick (not much contact friction) and this sends it over 12 ftlbs. Are what if the police use they own type of projectiles which are really heavy and smooth and make the gun over 12 ftlbs, you see there must be something in the "court case" were it comes down to the word capable at time of the seized. You see we cant win and were does the line stop, if the police want to make your gun go over power and say its capable of doing so because they is ways to do this by adjustment of a few screws, then thats what they will do, if we as shooters can provide proof that we are using certain pellets weighed or un weighed, then surely its down to the police to prove otherwise, not the other way round.
Example:- i have petrol in my shed that is explosive, does this mean im guilty of making an explosive devise i.e petrol bombs? You see they need to prove that at the time you are shooting an fac gun, it doesn't make sense there must be something in the case? I try doing some more digging online.

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tonyc
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Re: Firing pot length

Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:33 pm

When I raised the possibility of your rifle being over the limit I was trying to be helpful, not to start an argument or pass judgement on what is lawful/unlawful or fair/unfair. We don't know the details of the case and it may be that the defendant was treated leniently for reasons not reported. You advertise the fact that you modify guns and you test the power. If you were to be prosecuted this wouldn't exactly help your defence. Attitude plays a big part in how you are treated as neither the Police or Crown Prosecution Service are out to "do" responsible airgun owners just for the sake of it. Do as you please, but a least you are aware of the risks.

For your info, .177 PCP power peaks with a pellet weighing typically between 9.5 and 10.5 gr. If you try anything much heavier, or lighter, the power will fall off.

In Air Arms (LW) barrels I've found the fastest 8.44gr pellets are usually 4.51mm AA Diabolo Field but the fastest aren't usually the most accurate. Some dies produce pellets that are too loose and don't group as well as a slightly tighter fit, still sold as 4.51. You need to try a few different batches to find the best. None of my AA rifles are particularly pellet fussy so I wouldn't think you'll have much of problem.

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Roger5
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Re: Firing pot length

Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:49 pm

+1 now now Tony, you are being far to sensible, now stop it before it all gets out of hand LOL hope your still looking after my rifle xx

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